It's at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9THu0PZwwk
Here are my unsanitized incomplete distracted inaccurate [etc] notes.
Preface: Presenting Christian views of marriage. Some of you think,
"That's partisan." Well, whatever your view, it's partisan; it's religious
or quasi-religious; it's not scientific.
Essence of marriage
You've heard it said, "I love you, why do I need a piece of paper
to tell me I love you?"
"Marriage is just a piece of paper" but what does the piece of paper do?
What does the covenant relationship do?
- Adds security. There are two types of relationships:
- consumer-type relationship. You buy stuff at the store, that's
great, but if you find another store that provides same stuff
at better prices, you'll go there, because your needs are
much more important than your relationship with the grocer or
whoever.
- covenant relationship. If your kid cries and is selfish and
bratty, you have responsibility; you can't just dump him
somewhere with "you're not meeting my needs."
If you're "dating" and not married, you don't have a covenant,
you're in a consumer-type relationship where the other person could
just leave at any time. So you have to continuously sell
yourself; you can't just be yourself; the covenant creates
the security within which you can be vulnerable and honest.
- Adds stability. 2/3 of "unhappy" marriages, if they stick it out,
are happy 5 years later. What keeps you in there, through hard times,
to something really great? Think Ulysses past the island of the sirens,
tied to the mast.
Auden, "Any marriage, happy or unhappy, is infinitely more interesting
than any romance, however passionate" because it's the product of time
and will, not just of fleeting emotion.
- It adds freedom. Kierkegaard: if you don't know the discipline of
making a promise and sticking to it, you're not free; you're slave to your
impulses, the moment, the circumstances, your feelings. Hannah Arin:
without promises, no identity. Smedes, "when you make a promise you are
most free."
"He loves me but doesn't want to marry me." Keller: "He probably
means, ‘I don't love you enough to marry you, to
lose my independence, to bind myself to you in a covenant relationship.’"
Mission of marriage
What's your marriage for? What do you hope to accomplish with it?
To many people, it's passion and romance, maybe to combine your fortunes
together to form a more comfortable life.
The Christian purpose is for deep character change through deep
friendship. People want a compatible soul-mate... who will accept me
the way I am and whom I can accept and appreciate just the way they are;
someone who won't try to change me. If you want that, that's why you're
not married yet. You want someone low-maintenance who won't change
and won't try to change you. But no such person exists, and you're not
that way either. You pose like someone who is, but you're not; you've got
flaws. What might some flaws be?
- fearful person with tendency to anxiety
- proud person who tends to be selfish
- inflexible person who tends to be demanding
- undisciplined person who tends to be unreliable
- perfectionistic person who tends to be too critical of others
- impatient, irratible person who tends to hold grudges
- a cowardly person who tends to twist the truth to look good
Everyone comes into marriage with these kinds of things. Your parents
told you, your siblings told you, but you didn't really believe them.
But you get married, and those issues that caused small problems now
cause big problems. Marriage doesn't create flaws, it reveals them.
Hauerwas says, we assume there's someone out there who's just right
for us, but this overlooks the fact that we always marry the wrong
person.
Marriage is a huge thing and it changes us. So we change. Hence
even if you could find someone compatible
to marry, after you've been married awhile, they won't be any more!
So what are the Christian responses to this?
- First, not to be surprised, because the Christian view is we're all
selfish. Think Kim Kardashian. Embrace the conflict.
- Don't look for a finished statue, look for a great block of marble.
You want to be in love with the person as they are, but you want to
love the person they're becoming. Don't overdo what they look like,
as that'll change. Don't focus too much on their character
as it is today, but who they could become!
- Look for someone who could be your best friend. Remember that
great friendship doesn't come out of great sexual chemistry;
it's other way
around. The praise of the praiseworthy is its own reward.
The feeling I got the first time I kissed her was shallow;
it was all ego. It wasn't about her; I had no idea who she was.
It was about me, the thrill that she liked me. Now it's
like a deep river that makes no noise, vs a babbling brook
one inch deep.
The secret of marriage
To be able to love your spouse for periods when you're getting very
little back. They might be discouraged, sick, absorbed in their problems.
Very important to keep on giving love. That takes a source of love from
outside.
Seen this happen a lot of times: give to child, don't get much back,
but you give and you sacrifice [etc] anyway for 18 years. These
actions engender deep feelings of love. But your spouse -- if you don't love
me the way I want, I won't love you the way you want, and at the end of
18 years, you love your kid, you don't love your spouse, and the marriage
falls apart.
And it's your fault because what you did with your kid you didn't do
with your spouse. "Love philanthropy." Financial philanthropy possible
when you got a lotta money. Love philanthropy possible if you got a lotta
love from God.
Christ loved us not because we were lovely but in order to make us
lovely.
Q&A
- On finding a spouse, not just physical; what criteria? 4 or 5?
First, someone who really understands you, maybe better than you know
yourself. Who isn't surprised by your reactions. Second, someone you can
already solve problems with -- had a serious conflict, solved it in a
way satisfactory to both people.
btw if your faith is important to you, then for somebody to "get"
you they have to share your faith.
- I think we have a great marriage, my husband would say I have a
lot of flaws and am not making real good progress. How can I change?
I think I'm trying but it's harder than I thought.
If you agree on what needs to be changed, then 2/3 of your problem's
over; you just need a coach. You might want to get a 3rd party
involved. You need add'l fellowship.
- Love analogy of truck exposing stress fractures in a bridge;
kids are like a 2nd truck. Your perspective on that?
You spend more time together but you're not talking with each
other as much as talking through the kids. Probably not so much
disagreements about children, but time. You might travel less,
work fewer hours, to get time with family -- but time with my wife
very specific.
Mothers get a lot of their "skin hunger" addressed with kids
and don't have as much desire for physical intimacy as husbands have.
Husbands' desire is less complex.
- Criteria... sounds like it could take a long time to be sure about
that.
If you go to a film, have dinner, that's maybe an hour of conversation;
doesn't have to take a whole lotta time.
At other end, you describe the case of both spouses withdrawing,
and it's been going on 18-20 years, what do you do?
Too general a case. There are grounds for divorce so I don't know
that you absolutely can work it out. Intervention.
- About attraction -- ego rush vs real love?
Ego rush is inevitably there. If the main thing that attracts you
is physical (women disproportionately look at height and economics; men
likewise disproportionatelylook at body and face)... you need something more.
- Role of dating? Dating vs engagement etc?
Nothing in Bible about dating. Lots about marriage in the Bible.
All I can tell you is, get a picture of marriage and let that affect
dating. As you get older, probably you shouldn't be dating if in your
view there's no way you could get married to that person.
- Advice for an engaged couple? Not premarital counseling.
The book is basically about that. So don't get discouraged in the
short term. The basic cancer is self-centeredness. It's not "I've got
into conflict w/spouse; marriage has brought me into conflict with my
self-centeredness." Mission of marriage: become best friends and
figure out how that happens. Look at sex as a covenant renewal
ceremony, or covenant cement.
Sex outside marriage is no preparation for sex within marriage.
They're completely different.
- What you've said about marriage, most of that would apply to gay
marriage. What role in society?
Christian view of marriage is that it's between a man and a woman,
because primary mission connected with bringing together people of
diametrically opposed genders. We clash and mesh. It's intrinsic
to the Christian idea of marriage. My wife teaches me things that
I could not learn from another man.